[Mearsfan07]

I would like to know your opinion on this car. Regaurdless of wheather you like the driver or not, lets look at this. Is the 25 car a hot shot Hendrick car? Or a POS test machine? Mears has had plenty of chances at wins, and got screwed (Watkins Glenn, Homestead, etc). We know Ganassi the past few years has put plenty of money into other racing programs other than Nascar. That 41 and 42 were never the "competitive" type. I'm not trying to whine about this car, and I will stay behind him no matter what because he's my favorite driver. But does this 25 car suck, or is it just me?

 

[selby92]

The 25 sucks. Nadeau was the first driver to win in that car in like 10 years, and you see how many other wins it has gotten since. But the only thing is that the 25 seems to do good at one track only, like Nadeau would always be in contention at Atlanta, Vickers always ran good at Pocono, Nemechek ran pretty good at Richmond. Hendrick just sticks someone in that car to make laps for a year or two it seems like.

 

[JoKeR]

exactly, its almost like you said, its their test car for every track. i hope vickers will do better next year compaired to this year, but i was glad to see him get out of that car. now just to get him out of a toyota.

 

[PAUL BARTLE]

since Jeff Gordon's arrival the #25 always been the poor relation behind the #24 and #5 now Jimmie Johnson's #48 must admit there have had some good drivers over the seasons that have failed to deliver whether that's the machinery or the driver as a long time fan of the team (since schraders days in the Kodiak lumina ) has alway been a major question with casey and the new sponsorship package i for one was hoping to see a turn around this season but at 35th(vickers was 19th at this stage ) in the standings looks like another disappointing season
which is a shame

 

[BLACKER]

I do not think it has anything to do with the car, look at the most recent drivers of the 25.

Has anyone of them ever done more in another car? Who have we mentioned here, Craven, Nadeau? Mears? Schrader? What has Vickers done since he got out of the car?
When someone gets out of the 25 car and does better, then there is at least something to talk about, otherwise from what I have seen, the 25 car is the only reason these guys were even competetive.

Mears is too new to tell, but if it were just a test ride, why would they throw these other guys out? They are looking for a driver.

 

[taterracing]

The 25 car is basically an R&D car for Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson. It's been that way since 1995-96. They usually put up-and-coming drivers in that car, but they always seem to struggle throughout a season. They show glimces of greatness, but not often. They can't keep a sponsor on that car and it seems like they can't keep a driver in that car either.

Since the beginning of the 2000 season. Wins by race team.

24 team - 27 wins
48 team - 26 wins
5 team - 5 wins (1 T. labonte, 4 Kyle Busch)
25 team - 3 wins (1 Nadeau, 1 Nemechek, 1 Vickers)

Top 10 point finishes since 2000 season.

24 team - 6 top 10 point finishes in 7 seasons (11th in 05)
48 team - 5 in 5 seasons (all in top 5)
5 team - 2 in 7 seasons (T. Labonte 10th in 03; Kyle Busch 10th in 06)
25 team - 0 in 7 seasons (Vickers best 15th in 3 years; Nemecheck 25th in 2 years; Nadeau 17th in 2 years)

I'm not sure what the shop situation is with the teams. I thought at one time it was the 24 and 48 in one shop and the 5 and 25 in another. I don't know if that's still true, but it would explain a lot.

Alex

 

[JJ48Fan]

I'm not sure what the shop situation is with the teams. I thought at one time it was the 24 and 48 in one shop and the 5 and 25 in another. I don't know if that's still true, but it would explain a lot.

Alex

That's how the shops are set. 24/48 in 1 shop and next door is the 5/25.

The same could be said for McMurray and Roush. Last year McMurray was the equivalent of the 25 car. He never was a contender in that car. He's getting better this year but he hasn't been leading laps. Seems like all the big teams have one guinea pig type car. Gibbs it could be the 18 car. DEI it looks to be Menard or Truex. I can't think of one 3+ car team off the top of my head that has every single car running consistently in the top 10.

 

[selby92]

I do not think it has anything to do with the car, look at the most recent drivers of the 25.

Has anyone of them ever done more in another car? Who have we mentioned here, Craven, Nadeau? Mears? Schrader? What has Vickers done since he got out of the car?
When someone gets out of the 25 car and does better, then there is at least something to talk about, otherwise from what I have seen, the 25 car is the only reason these guys were even competetive.

Mears is too new to tell, but if it were just a test ride, why would they throw these other guys out? They are looking for a driver.

You forgot Dallenbach. Also Nadeau had a decent season going with the 01 car in 03, he had a top 10 at Texas and a strong run at California then he got injured. Also Nadeau did do a decent job with Melling, he got a top 5 and a top 10 with them, more than Lake Speed and Stacy Compton did combined, so yes Nadeau did do something with other teams. Hendrick obviously only dumps his money into the 24 and 48, and he puts some into the 5 and nothing into the 25. Mears has talent, he almost won a few times with the 41 and when was the last time Ganassi won a race? He might be struggling right now cause of the new team, but even when he gets used to it he will probably be finishing in the 20s because the 25 is just no good.

 

[BLACKER]

Everyone has a "decent" run here or there, but who left the 25 and went on to do better? No one.

In the 25 every driver mentioned so far made every race of the year, and were even competetive and a threat to win at least once or twice a year. Since they left can anyone remember the last time Dallenbach, Craven, Nadeua or any of them were a serious threat to win anything? I'll bet everyone on the list would trade his current situation to be back in that car.

No matter how good the car is, it cannot make an average driver a winner. If it were the car somebody, anybody, would have went to another team and done well. If it were an R&D car, that would just make the other teams cars look even worse, because all these guys were better in that car than they are in the ones they are now.

By the way, the 25 qualified top 5 today, where is Vickers, Nadeua, Schrader, Wally or any of them?

 

[selby92]

Everyone has a "decent" run here or there, but who left the 25 and went on to do better? No one.

In the 25 every driver mentioned so far made every race of the year, and were even competetive and a threat to win at least once or twice a year. Since they left can anyone remember the last time Dallenbach, Craven, Nadeua or any of them were a serious threat to win anything? I'll bet everyone on the list would trade his current situation to be back in that car.

No matter how good the car is, it cannot make an average driver a winner. If it were the car somebody, anybody, would have went to another team and done well. If it were an R&D car, that would just make the other teams cars look even worse, because all these guys were better in that car than they are in the ones they are now.

By the way, the 25 qualified top 5 today, where is Vickers, Nadeua, Schrader, Wally or any of them?

Nadeau should have won the 2002 Sears Point race to let you know, when he was driving with Petty in the 44 car. So yes, he was a serious threat to win even after leaving the 25. He was leading and took the white flag and his transmission went bad. Also with your "Nadeau would trade anything to be back in that car" comment, Nadeau was dying to get out of that car because he wasn't given crap from Hendrick. Also to answer your question where Nadeau is, he got injured, after getting off to a decent start with the 01. And for some reason I have a feeling your going to get all pissed at me, but you asked these questions, and I answered em.

 

[BLACKER]

Interesting. Waltrip also begged to get out of the 15 car ....

But you seem to be saying that because Nadeau almost won a race once in the 01 car that makes the 25 an R&D car?
He ALMOST won several races in the 25, almost isn't good enough to keep a Hendrick ride.

Opinions are great, and we can debate that aspect forever, stats dont lie.
Who had a better career AFTER they left the 25? Higher in points, more wins, anything. Not a fluke one time run here or there. Who did better after leaving that ride. One question, seems simple if that car is so crappy.
You seem to incinuate that the 25 car was holding Nadeau back, but since he left he has not even consistently made races. The 25 car has been in EVERY NASCAR race over the years, not Nadeau, not Schrader, not Vickers ... none of them.

Also, by your logic, the best ride Casey Mears could pull was a Hendrick R&D car. So one of two scenarios has to be playing out right now.
1.) Either Mears is not that good, and could not pull a ride that is a serious contender.
2.) Mears and his agent are unaware of the lower backing the 25 receives. They think it is a great ride and just do not know any better.

 

[BLACKER]

Just cuz I opened my big mouth about statistics not lying I had to go research Jerry's carreer. :dingy:
Here are the numbers.
Year Wins Top Fives Top Tens
2003 0 1 1
2002 0 0 1
2001 0 4 10
2000 1 3 5
1999 0 1 2
1998 0 0 0
1997 0 0 0

Care to guess which years he was in the 25 car? 2000, 01, 02 He left in 02 to drive the 10 car for a bit. That 1 top ten was in the 25 car.

As you can see, his stats jumped immediatley once he got in the 25. After leaving the 25, they look alot like they did before. He had 1 top five the rest of his entire career.
Seven top 5s in the 25, 1 win. 2 top fives, 0 wins total elsewhere.

Dont blame the ride, a good carpenter never blames his tools for bad work.

 

[selby92]

What do you mean since Nadeau has left the 25 he has had trouble making races? He got injured a year later! He racing career is over. What do you not understand about that?! Even when he left the 25 and raced the 44 half of 02 he still made all the races he qualified for! So I don't get where he has had trouble consistantly making races, but I think its more you not being able to read.

 

[BLACKER]

I can read, and I can add. There are the numbers.

The only years of his career he got more than 1 top five finish were in the 25. His ONLY win was in the 25.
I can read that.

Nadeau was below average before the 25, and after. Sorry he got hurt, but that does not change anything. No reason to call the 25 car names.

Back up your statements with something besides more opinions and this might be more fun. I have produced the numbers of his career two posts above. Explain how his best years were in the 25, yet the 25 was bad for him.

 

[selby92]

I can read, and I can add. There are the numbers.

Nadeau was below average before the 25, and after. Sorry he got hurt, but that does not change anything. No reason to call the 25 car names.

How was he below average after? He ran only 10 races in 2003! He didn't have a chance to do much, and the rest of 2002 he ran mostly with the 44, and he ran only one race with the 10 to let you know. And do you really think anyone can do anything with the 44 Petty car?

 

[BLACKER]

That is your job to defend Nadeau, not mine. I am defending the 25 as a quality ride.

I made a statement of fact, Nadeau's (much like other drivers) had their best years in the 25 car.

If you are going to say the 25 car is not a quality ride, then you need to make a counter point to that statement. Show me a trend that proves your point.

Nadeau begging to leave the 25 for the 44 baffles me as much as anyone, but it is neither here nor there for this discussion. You have taken the stance that Nadeau was better off without the 25, show something that supports that stance, otherwise it is merely your opinion.
All the excuses for why he could not run up front before or after the 25 car, as well as personal attacks against me just attempt to deflect from your statement.

I would take any support for any driver that had a better career before or after the 25, you are the one who chose Nadeau as our focus.

 

[selby92]

Actually, I never said that Nadeau was better off out of the 25, I was actually kinda mad when he left. He was the one that thought he could find something better, but like a true fan I supported him. I just think the 25 was never a very good car to begin with seeing how many drivers have run in it and have failed. Its hard to say this, but pretty soon Mears will probably get stuck with another team thats worse than Hendrick, even with his talent. The 25 has just never been all that good in my opinion, but if you think that every driver that has stepped into it has just had no talent, thats what you think, and I have what I think. We could spend all day argueing and still wouldn't know what the deal with the 25 and the drivers is.

 

[BLACKER]

I actually like Nadeau, didn't like it when he got hurt. I like Craven too, Vickers well, thats another story.

But the crux of your argument, that the 25 is underfunded and only a secondary Hendrick ride, revolves around the fact that the drivers in it are not winning and consistently running up front.

I cannot argue that point, as it is true. The 25 is rarely up front, and then only at certain tracks.

The basis for my arguement is that is true, not because the car is not top notch, but that the drivers in the car are not top notch. They may have been nice, good guys, and some were even decent drivers, but nobody in that car has had the talent to take it to the front in years. Nobody in that car could take any car consistently to the front, and I set out to prove that with the stats. I looked at several of the more recent 25 drivers and all of them had their best years in the 25.

I think if anyone good gets in the 25 it too will run up front with the others. Mears may be the one, it is too soon to tell.

I was not trying to piss you off or anything.

 

[Mearsfan07]

Well Mears got his first top ten at Bristol in the 25 car. One race he got caught in pits when the caution came out. The other have been accidental run-ins. So I'm hoping he will have a shot to win it soon, and then I'm sure he can pull it off. He's been caught up in someone else's BS the past two weeks. One which he was running 9th at Phoenix, and the other Texas in the opening laps. I'll just keep rooting for Mears wheather he does good or bad though!!

Good run today Mears! Stephen got up to 2nd to, but got in that wreck.

 

[Billy Kingsley]

Joe Nemechek won at Kansas in 2003 after leaving the 25 car. If they hadn't put Mark Martin in the 01 car this year, it would have been Nemechek finishing second at Daytona...and don't give me that crap line that Martin did it because he is a better driver. He did it because Bobby Ginn has sunk more money into the 01/13/14 team in one off season then Nelson Bowers and crew did in a decade.

Jerry Nadeau would have won that race had he not suffered a career ending injury.

What you are failing to remember is that these drivers you are dissing, mainy Jerry Nadeau would have had far more impressive results if things had gone better.

Let's look at Jerry Nadeau's career. The stats you are using against him, actually, if TRULY looked at, show what he truly WAS capable of!

Fact: He nearly won Sears Point in a Petty car. This was in the time that Petty cars were struggling, and failing, to even make races, let alone run in the top 20. A lesser driver wouldn't have done that. Remember Roy "Buckshot" Jones? While I am a big fan of Buckshot's, he just didn't have what it takes to make it in Cup. The ride he couldn't even always qualify earlier in the season, Jerry steps in and almost wins. Mechanical Faliure keeps Jerry out of Victory Lane. Even Ted Musgrave, another favorite of mine, who later won the Truck Series Championship! Could not even succeed in that car! A Championship winning driver in the exact same car doing nothing...That should speak volumes!

Fact: He nearly put the #01 Army Pontiac in Victory lane. Think about what the MB2 team had at that time. They were racing a lame-duck Pontiac Grand Prix. They had almost no factory support, as Pontiac was preparing to pull out of the sport, which they did at the end of the season. The team was mid-pack quality at best before then. As I said, Nelson Bowers just didn't have the financial means that other owners did, and the team had been struggling since it's inception in 1997, with Derrike Cope behind the wheel. It had won only a single race, also Johnny Benson's sole career victory (for now). In only Ten races before a career ending injury (again caused be mechanical faliure!) Jerry, while not posting impressive results, had some of the best races in his career. Care to pull out the old race tapes and rewatch them and see?

Take a look at the MB2 Team page here: http://www.racing-reference.info/owner?id=bowerne01

Not very impressive is it? This is the team that both Nadeau and Nemechek went to after leaving Hendrick.

If they could stop getting hit by other drivers, and NASCAR's moronic Top 35 rule, both Nemechek and Marlin would be in the top 20 in points currently, and I think Nemechek would be top 10. Top 15 at the lowest.

The 25 car has been an R&D car since Tim Richmond died. That was Hendrick's second car (after the #5 with Geoff Bodine) and I think every time Rick sees it he thinks of his lost friend, thus why it remains on track. That, and, the fact that it still has a sponsor.

The 25 and 5 share a shop. They share cars. In fact, the cars are 100% identical except the decals! (They were even painted with the same blue paint!) And, we know for a fact that Terry Labonte was running an R&D car near the end of his career. He, Hendrick, or his various crew chiefs never denied it. And they are the exact same cars!

The entire story is not proved by finishing positions. Think of how often the best car does NOT win the race, either due to mechical falire, crash, driver error, etc.

We Jerry Nadeau diehard fans may not be voluminus, but we are rabid and protective...LOL.